Monday, August 24, 2009
Town Hall in Washington State
It is a priviledge to post this video (as many others have done) of the recent town hall meeting in Washington state, in which former Marine David Hedrick read the riot act to Rep. Brian Baird (D-WA) regarging the health care bill. Kudos to the audience, who pretty much 100% supported Hedrick's comments.
As for the reference to brownshirts, I would remind all the Democrats that in all of the town hall meetings across the country, there have only been two or three in which violence broke out. Those were all committed by the government health care supporters, union goons like SEIU. There has not been to my knowledge one incident of anti-government health care protesters initiating any physical violence.
So who are the brownshirts?
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17 comments:
I realize that I said that I was done with this blog, so maybe I'm being stupid for writing a response. I guess I have a thing for tilting at windmills though.
I've been reading your posts lately regarding this whole health care controversy, and the only thing that I can definitely conclude is that I feel sorry for you and people like this guy on the video. Fox News and various conservative pundits have worked their propaganda to spread so much fear into people like you, and the greatest casualty has been the truth or any sense of perspective.
First of all, whether this guy is a Marine or not has nothing to do with anything. I'm tired of certain members of the military acting like that gives them some sort of automatic credibility on any given issue.
Second of all, can any of you "conservatives" make a point about anything without invoking the Nazis? You really think that he's made some sort of a point that the Nazis were National "Socialists"? I guess democracy and republics are bad too, because after all, North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea. Absurd, you say? It's the exact same logic that he's using.
Thirdly, nobody's taking anybody's health care away. What part of public option are you people not getting? And no, I don't think that the current plan is going to solve everything, but the problem right now is that we have millions in this country who are without health care, and we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to the health of our citizens. (Not that you'd know, because you actually believe the lies that the pundits are spouting with every breath they take.)
Fourth, it's also ironic that he brings up his military record to denounce socialism, when the military is essentially a socialist institution, as is the mail, roads, fire department, police department, etcetera. But I guess socialism is okay for important things, and health care obviously isn't important enough.
It's amazing the amount of hypocrisy you've shown lately where you get all over Hillary Clinton for having an all-too human response to what seemed like a rather inappropriate question, and yet you're able to do logical backflips defending Sarah Palin's "death panel" comment. (At least you didn't try to make sense of her near-schizophrenic exit speech!)
The reason why she said "death panel" is because she wants to scare people. That's the "conservative" tactic of choice - spread the hysteria.
It's amazing how you will have post after post where you've demonized various demonstrators, and yet you treat these people at the town hall meetings like they're heroes of some sort. And Barney Frank is supposedly a jerk when a woman asks why he's supporting a "Nazi" plan!? Her question was crazy, and there is no talking to people like that.
All these people are doing is being loud and disruptive, and when they're not doing that, they're asking "When did you stop beating your wife" types of questions. Also, they don't have their facts straight.
You do have to hand it to the Dems though, at least they let these people in. The Bush town hall meetings were all pre-screened and about as genuine as professional wrestling.
But this is the thing with people like you, Gary. You don't care about facts. You don't examine the evidence and then draw a conclusion. You've made up your mind that you're going to be "conservative" (a term that has lost all of its meaning) no matter where the facts may lead. (Need a specific example? You openly deny global warming, and yet you've admitted that you haven't even done any research on it! You just chose whichever side the "conservatives" were supporting!)
I used to get angry at these sorts of things, but now I'm just starting to feel sad. How terrible it must be to live in such totally irrational fear.
On the contrary, my life is great.
We are spreading fear? Let's start with the so-called death panel. As we speak, Obama has reissued the pamphlet ."Your life, your choices", which is slanted toward convincing vets to let life go. For one category of concern, they refer the reader to the Hemlock Society. The bottom line is that all that cost effectiveness Obama talked about means that we need to reduce the numbers of sick and elederly people in the country whgo are using up so much money for their health care. I just completed an 8 year process like this with my mom who died in may. Her needs were taken care of. I doubt they would be under this govt health plan. These people are pushing hospice and a system that would result in rationing.
Both sides are calling each other Nazis. But only one side has been guilty of physical violence on 2-3 occasions at these town halls-the pro-govt health care side, specifically SEIU and ACORN.
If you think things thru, you would realize that the public option would quickly squeeze private insurance out of business.
And who are these millions with no insurance? Well, about 12 million are illegal aliens (who get their care at the ER, young people who choose not to have insurance etc. Sure, there are folks who we can help, but to turn the whole system upside down and throw it out for the benefit of a few is stupid.
Lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world? No we have the best health care in the world. Your role models in Canada and the UK come to the US when they have serious illnesses and need major care quickly.
Hillary Clinton committed a faux pas that the most junior foreign service officer working under would never have done. If she had done this in the US that's one thing. We know she is a jerk. For the "Number 1 diplomat" to do it in another country with a college student is inexcusable. Yet, you and the liberals have all sorts of excuses. "She was tired"!!
I deny global warming? Not really. I have always said, "I don't know", and I don't see the wisdom in throwing away our economy in the name of global warming until we know for sure. Until its proven, I suspect it's just an excuse to set up more govt control, here and globally.
To me, it's become a religion.
So if you want to turn health care over to the same govt that is scrweing everything else up, I wish you luck. If they can't run Cash for clunkers, how are they going to run health care.
I worked for the govt, remember?
As we speak, Obama has reissued the pamphlet ."Your life, your choices", which is slanted toward convincing vets to let life go.
A brief Google news search indicates that what you are saying is hardly the whole story at best, and it's downright misleading at worst. If you actually care about the truth, you'll do some research that doesn't come from a right-wing pundit.
Both sides are calling each other Nazis. But only one side has been guilty of physical violence on 2-3 occasions at these town halls-the pro-govt health care side, specifically SEIU and ACORN.
Same response as to your last point. A quick Google search shows that's hardly the whole truth.
And who are these millions with no insurance?
You won't find out about it on Fox News, Gary. Again, examine other news sources - and no, it's not all illegal aliens. (And to be fair, the problem is that people have insurance, but the big insurance companies have been known to do whatever they can to deny coverage.)
Lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world? No we have the best health care in the world. Your role models in Canada and the UK come to the US when they have serious illnesses and need major care quickly.
Gary, this is simply wrong. It's nothing more than a right-wing talking point with little resemblance to reality. Again, just a bit of research will show this. Don't take my word for it.
I deny global warming? Not really. I have always said, "I don't know",
Well, now you're talking out both sides of your mouth. Or did you not write that clever little caption under the penguins? Give me a break.
So if you want to turn health care over to the same govt that is scrweing everything else up, I wish you luck.
Good point, Gary. Let's dismantle the military, post office and fire department while we're at it. We can't have this socialism any longer!
Lance,
I provided a link to the entire booklet. Read it and judge for yourself.
Frankly, Lance, your arguments are tiresome. Just because someone disagrees with your views, we are misleading, dishonest, hypocritic and don't care about facts. We are fear-mongering. I got news for you. Look at those people in those town hall meetings. They are afraid. For the first time in their lives, they are speaking out. And that makes them thugs, Nazis or whatever according to your side and your arguments.
I write what I write because its what I believe and I use my logic and how I interpret the news to make my points. You don't agree. Fine.
I suggest you go to Daily Kos or Huffington Post. I'm sure you will find it much more to your liking.
I provided a link to the entire booklet. Read it and judge for yourself.
I did. Your characterization of it is misleading.
Just because someone disagrees with your views, we are misleading, dishonest, hypocritic and don't care about facts.
Gary, facts are facts and they don't change based on what your opinion is. When you make a statement that people in the UK and Canada are coming here for their health care, that's simply not true. Are you trying to imply that reality is subjective?
I'm sorry if calling you out on the distortions that you make is tiresome. You remind me of the kid in the class who claims that I'm always picking on him, despite the fact that he's always causing trouble. If you had more respect for objective fact, I wouldn't be able to call you out on it.
And I notice that, as usual, you can't actually address my points. Instead you argue things that I haven't even said.
Lastly, I'll have you know that I've called people out on their distortions who were on my side. I got on somebody's case for spreading the false rumor about Sarah Palin banning books. It's not about sides for me, Gary; it's about what's true and what isn't.
Lance,
Seems we are talking past each other. It is a fact that Brits and Canadians come to the Us when they need major treatment and can't wait months for it as they have to do there.
As for the pamphlet, you can do what Rachel Maddow's sub did last night on MSNBC, take one sentence from the pamphlet that was benign and put it on the screen to make the point that there is nothing wrong with it. Page 21 to me is pretty troubling, but it depends on your interpretaion. Maybe you should check Robert Pearlman who co-wrote it-see what his background and agenda is.
We seem to have a different concept as to what facts are.
I'll take it from the bottom:
We seem to have a different concept as to what facts are.
You're right. When it comes to facts though, one (or both of us) must be wrong, as they are not subjective.
Regarding the pamphlet, I found no problem with it. From what I can tell, it respects all points of view and encourages people to think about what they want so they can make an informed and rational decision. From what I can tell, you don't even want them to suggest possibilities that you find unacceptable, not realizing that what's unacceptable to you might be acceptable (even preferable) to others.
Personally, I find it ironic that pets are allowed to die with more dignity in this country than people are. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be placed on a flaming Viking ship than live out the end of my days in a bed with nothing to do but lie there.
Regarding the Brits and Canadians coming here for treatment, I have no doubt that this has happened and even continues to happen. However, to use that as though it somehow represents the norm is simply not true. It would be just as bad if I were to say the reverse (which also has some truth to it). This is why I say that you're being misleading.
What you don't seem to understand is that I don't use words like "misleading, dishonest," etc. because I disagree with you. I honestly didn't know what to think of the whole health care debate, but when I see how so-called conservatives frame their arguments and conduct themselves, I know that I sure as hell can't side with them.
In other words, you have the cart before the horse.
Lance,
"Personally, I find it ironic that pets are allowed to die with more dignity in this country than people are. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be placed on a flaming Viking ship than live out the end of my days in a bed with nothing to do but lie there."
Yes, I agree, but that is a decision between the patient, family and doctor, one I went through in May with my Mom. The Govt has no place in that discussion.
You may not know what to think of the health care debate, but I do. You may not agree with my views, but they are not dishonest.
Final point: You take Obama's word for it that the death panel charge is ridiculous. I suggest you connect a few dots:
Obama's statement about cost effectiveness and maybe better to take the pill than have the operation.
The end of life clause in the health bill about funding medicare to have periodic end of life counseling sessions (again, something the govt has no business being in)
The booklet we have argued about. Go back and re-read p 21. You may think it's benign, but why should the govt be involved in this?
The background and agenda of the man who co-authored the booklet, Robert Pearlman.
Thye bottom line, Lance, is that when they talk about cost-effectiveness, they want to get the old and sick to let go and die as soon as possible.
And if you think the govt is competent to run health care after all the other fiascos they have screwed up, there's no hope for you.
The Govt has no place in that discussion.
I don't even know what you mean by this. All it's doing is providing people with information so they can make an informed choice. You keep making this statement over and over again like it's some kind of mantra.
As for the dots you want me to connect, I'm sorry, Gary, but I take this about as seriously as I do the 9/11 conspiracy theorists. There are far too many leaps one has to make to reach your conclusion.
Thye bottom line, Lance, is that when they talk about cost-effectiveness, they want to get the old and sick to let go and die as soon as possible.
You state this like it's a proven fact. There is no logical reason for me to believe this. In fact, I think that you can easily say that about the current health care system that we have. Those insurance companies are in it to make money, not to help people.
And if you think the govt is competent to run health care after all the other fiascos they have screwed up, there's no hope for you.
Tell me, Gary, why do you trust the government to run the military, the police department, the fire department, the roads, the post office, etcetera when they're as bad as you say? You've had this pointed out to you before. My guess? You will dodge it yet again.
Here's the REAL bottom line, Gary. I notice that you have nothing to say regarding the distortion about how supposedly Canadians and British are coming into our country to meet their health care needs. Want to know what I think?
I think that if your cause was so righteous, you wouldn't have to distort the truth. If you guys were so sensible, you wouldn't be shouting while people are trying to speak. If you guys had a logical argument, you wouldn't have to invoke the Nazis and play word games over and over again.
Your most telling statement is this:
You may not know what to think of the health care debate, but I do.
It's your absolute certainty that makes me not trust you or people like you. I'd rather have uncertainty with facts rather than what you have.
You may not agree with my views, but they are not dishonest.
I believe that they are honestly your views, but you use dishonesty to support your claims. I very specifically laid out my accusations of you distorting the truth. I have yet to see you even attempt to refute them. Until you do, I will assume that you can't.
If somebody accused me of being dishonest, I would either use facts to prove that I'm truthful, or I'd man up and admit that my arguments are based more on emotion and not reason.
I missed something important:
Final point: You take Obama's word for it that the death panel charge is ridiculous.
I wasn't aware that he said it was ridiculous. I don't let Obama do my thinking for me. Personally, I think that he's been pretty disappointing with a lot of things, and he's talking out both sides of his mouth lately on this issue.
But if he says it's ridiculous, then I just happen to agree with him.
Lance,
"The Govt has no place in that discussion."
"I don't even know what you mean by this. All it's doing is providing people with information so they can make an informed choice. You keep making this statement over and over again like it's some kind of mantra."
Tell me again why I need the govt to give me info on my end of life choices. It's a matter between me, my family and my doctor. Do I need the govt to help me decide whether I want to keep fighting to live or let go? Are there any areas you don't want govt involved in.
--------------------------------
"As for the dots you want me to connect, I'm sorry, Gary, but I take this about as seriously as I do the 9/11 conspiracy theorists. There are far too many leaps one has to make to reach your conclusion."
"The bottom line, Lance, is that when they talk about cost-effectiveness, they want to get the old and sick to let go and die as soon as possible."
"You state this like it's a proven fact. There is no logical reason for me to believe this. In fact, I think that you can easily say that about the current health care system that we have. Those insurance companies are in it to make money, not to help people."
As much as I criticize govt, in the last 8 years of my mother's life, she was taken care of by Medicare, her secondary insurance and in the end when her money ran out, MediCal. I have no complaints. In her last years, in her 80s, in poor health, she got a pacemaker numerous catscans, MRIs, ultrasounds, glaucoma surgery and all her doctors visits. Do you really think she would have gotten a pacemaker at 85 under this new plan? We are talikng about HMOs on steroids here.
To me, connecting the dots is easy given the 4 points I mentioned. This is what they do in Europe, and this is where they want to take us.
"Tell me, Gary, why do you trust the government to run the military, the police department, the fire department, the roads, the post office, etcetera when they're as bad as you say? You've had this pointed out to you before. My guess? You will dodge it yet again."
Some of your examples merity a response. Im not so sure about the post office. Police departments are at local state and federal levels. I know from my own experience that DEA could be quite efficient at the investigative street level. Once we started having to deal with HQs in Washington, everything went to Hell. The military is the best in the world, and they do their job great. When things have gotton screwed up it was because of govt interference in Washington. Example: Sandy Berger, Clinton's incompetent National Security Advisor shutting down the killing of Osama bin Laden when the military had him in their sights, but had to clear it with Washington. The roads? Have you driven in California lately? Oh yes, you live in Calif don't you? Where have all the gas taxes we have paid to Sacramento gone? Surely not to the highways.
There is no distortion about the Canadaians and the British health care system. A recent candaian report says their system is imploding. And yes, they are coming when they can't wait months to see a specialist or have that cancer operation. It is no distortion. But at this point, we are just saying, "Yes, you did"-"No I didn't" over and over again.
OK, I am certain and you are not. But if you are not certain about the health care plan, don't you think it's a petty big gamble to take? Once it's here, there's no getting rid of it. Like global warming, you better think long and hard before we make revolutionary changes to our way of life.
And I am done with this issue.
I live in California. I think the roads are pretty good. What's wrong with them?
What they're doing with the Bay Bridge is pretty amazing. And remember that truck burned up a section of the freeway? They came in ahead of schedule. I was just up in Trinity County, and they're constantly fixing the roads and making improvements there.
Sure the traffic sucks, but I don't think it's the roads' fault.
You're done with this issue? Funny, but it looks like you're still posting on it where you're still saying the same old stuff.
Funny how you keep bringing up Canada. I'm not sure exactly where I ever said that we need to have a system that's exactly like theirs. I don't recall anybody saying that, actually. Only you conservatives keep bringing it up. (Assuming that it's even true that they are "imploding". From what I've read, they definitely have their problems. But so what? The dems aren't proposing a system like theirs.)
Any chance you'll provide some kind of a source for your assertion about Brits and Canadians coming here for health care? I did some research, and I'm not finding anything. I did read about one guy who came here for a surgery, but it was paid for by the Canadian government, which doesn't do wonders for your point.
Lance,
AAAAGGGHHH!!! When I said I was done with this issue, what I meant was that I was done arguing with you.
Sources? Why don't you ask your two main sources-Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert?
Last man out the door shut the light, please.
Gary, when I got divorced in the US, I lost my health insurance. Is that fair? My partners ex-wife and his children in Germany stayed in the health care system inspite of the divorce. People in Germany who are on welfare still have health insurance. In Germany I have to pay for private health insurance, which is about $200 a month, and will be cancelled when I am 75. God help me then. If I take out medicare, I cannot use it here. As an American, I'll be up the creek then.
When I see a doctor in Germany, I pay for the treatment myself and never have to wait in the waiting room, but the people with health insurance have to wait up to three hours. I am sure people from Canada or GB who go to the States for treatment pay out of their own pocket. The doctors here are just as capable but many want to move to England, Australia etc.
I have no idea which system is the best. I am sorry that I can't ask my parents anymore what kind of system the Nazis had. Maybe it was REALLY good. My mother had 7 children during that time. I don't remember them complaining.
Ingrid,
Nobody is saying that some reform isn't needed. We can make changes like letting insurance companies sell nationally across state lines, which would increase competion . Tort reform would greatly cut down on the cost of medical care, but the democrats don't want to hear about that because they are in the pockets of the lawyers.
We are not saying keep things exactly as they are, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water. For people like you, I would like to see something done, but not because of young people who choose not to buy insurance or illeagal aliens.
AAAAGGGHHH!!! When I said I was done with this issue, what I meant was that I was done arguing with you.
I get it. You're taking your toys home and not playing anymore.
Sources? Why don't you ask your two main sources-Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert?
Gee, you really got me on that. You're right, that's where I get all my news. Could be worse though. I could be getting it from Fox News, where they don't even let you know that what they're saying is a joke.
I'll take that as a dodge though. The thing is, you're the one who keeps making the assertion. Therefore, the onus is on you to provide the proof - something you haven't done. All you've done is repeat yourself.
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