Hat tip to OC Independent Task Force on Anti-Semitism
I am cross-posting a letter from the OC Independent Task Force on Anti-Semitism from a UCLA student who has given her permission to post the letter. The Olive Tree Initiative, which began at UC-Irvine, is now spreading to other UC campuses.
http://octaskforce.wordpress.com/2010/12/17/ucla-students-letter-expresses-deep-concern-about-the-olive-tree-initiative/
In the current debate over this program, the OC Jewish Federation has chosen to post some letters from certain students at UCI who support the OTI program. I don't think you will see this one on their website
(OC Jewish Experience).
"in times when Israel is demonized and unjustly singled out for perennial rebuke in the world, it is morally wrong to bring speakers who further implicate and vilify Israel."
ReplyDeleteThis is why I find little to respect in the letter. This student is arguing that it is morally wrong to bring speakers who criticize Israel. If Israel's friends do not dare offer criticism when it is warranted - and a good deal of criticism is warranted at this time - then the leave the field to the most implacable enemies of Israel.
This woman is an enemy of free speech. If a speaker disagrees with her own perspective, it is "morally wrong" to listen to them. If she weren't Jewish, she'd be a good candidate for Roman Catholicism at its most authoritarian.
Siarlys,
ReplyDeleteI think what she really means to say is that it is wrong for these speakers to be broaught using Jewish money (fromt Jewish donors). I don't think it is a free speeech issue rather one of how your (contribution) money is spent. That is the crux of the issue here.
Gary,
ReplyDeleteLet us end this "funds" issue once and for all.
No, 0 cents, 0 dollars, communal money is used to fund OTI. A small group of individual donors, who vote year after year, called the Rose Project, fund OTI.
So, your argument and others is void. 0 dollars, 0 cents.
Finally, this student has not attended an OTI event, either at UCI or UCLA (there is a chapter at UCLA), so the reason the other students are given preference is they actually KNOW what OTI is, and aren't entirely working off emails.
Matan
Matan,
ReplyDeleteI am still puzzled about what you say since the OTI pamphlet (which I have) solicits funds and explains what the funds go to-travel, meals and lodging. If all funding comes from a small group in the Rose Project as I understand your argument, then why does the OTI pamphlet solicit donations?
But let's set that aside. I am not calling for people to stop donating to the OC Jewish Federation. You need to address that argument to others.
What I am doing is looking into the figures like Rishmawi, Qumsiyeh et al. I would hope you also checked out Qumsiyeh's involvement in the Stuttgart conference, which I posted, and what came out of that conference (Stuttgart Declaration).
Are you telling me that no one has the right to investigate these people? If I were to contribute to an organization, I would want to know whether the money was going toward something I really believed in.
Matan,
ReplyDeleteMoney is not everything. There are other ways to support something, ways that can be be worse morally. Though it seems morality is irrelevant to you, as you forged names on the "student letter." Any credibility you may have had no longer exists as a result of your unethical actions. Based on this and your championing of OTI for the Federation, I wouldn't give a penny to the Federation for supporting you, forget OTI.
The OTI pamphlet solicits donations, because 90% of donations come from individual donors, such as student's parents, friends, and community members, not organizations. That's very simple.
ReplyDeleteYou post dozens of articles from people calling for the divestment from JFed/Hillel (http://garyfouse.blogspot.com/search?q=federation), so maybe you should explicitly state you are against this in a statement.
I 100% support the looking into the figures behind OTI. Before the trip, I spent about 50 hours of research on personal volunteer time to lookup the authors, their controversial points, activities, and alignments so I could challenge them. The insane Mr. Qumsiyeh, for example, I found an article linking him to saying Zionists conducted 9/11. Upon my arrival in the region, I stood up and challenged him on that, making him look like a fool in front of the group. Mr. Qumsiyeh and others are absolutely despicable characters, liars, and illegitimate. What better way to advocate for the Israeli cause then showing students the absolutely insane views of *some* of the Palestinian activists (another one added that the Western Wall was Islamic in nature).
You can investigate whatever. The actual people who donate to OTI are well aware of the speakers, they receive a full itinerary, and many of them were members of the OTI community trip, where they spoke to many of the same speakers!
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you feel this way, and I'm sure you weren't a supporter of the Fed prior to this. I and other student's already apologized for the pre-mature student letter, and said apology was accepted by every student on the letter, they understand the mistake.
Matan
"The OTI pamphlet solicits donations, because 90% of donations come from individual donors, such as student's parents, friends, and community members, not organizations. That's very simple."
ReplyDelete"You can investigate whatever. The actual people who donate to OTI are well aware of the speakers, they receive a full itinerary, and many of them were members of the OTI community trip, where they spoke to many of the same speakers!"
Matan,
We seem to be speaking past each other on this point. How can one say that the people who are requested to donate (on the pamphlet) are well aware of who all the speakers and contacts on the OTI trips are? Are you saying that all donors from the community get a full itinerary-before or after they contribute? Do you assume they know anything about the names that appear on that itinerary-which apparently has been subject to change?
As for making any public statements opposing donations to the Federation, I think my comment to you is sufficient. I am not involved in trying to stop donations to the Fed. On the other hand, it is not up to me to be their PR organ.
Matan,
ReplyDeleteI'm on Hillel's listserve and received the student letter that Hillel sent out, apparently on behalf of you. I never received a retraction. Retractions are only valid if they are sent via the same means that the original was sent. Also, there is a difference between an apology to those whose names were forged and a retraction of the letter.
Additionally, my friend's son's name was used and has not accepted your apology or the apology of any other student, so for you to claim that an apology was accepted by every student is a lie. Your lying seems to be a normal thing. This speaks loudly about the segment of the Jewish community that has produced you and supports you.
In the Federation's response to Ms. Sterling they said they wouldn't throw the baby out with the water. They should throw you out with the water, or they will lose credibility as well for associating with a habitual liar.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI don't know Matan personally, but I have no reason to say he is a liar. I think that is too strong. I also think it is too strong to say the names on the letter were "forged". Was there a screw up? I assume there was, but that is far as I am prepared to go.
Gary,
ReplyDeleteMy friend's son was never contacted by Matan or anyone else regarding an apology owed to him for the deliberate use of his name.
Thus the following statement by Matan is a lie:
"...said apology was accepted by every student on the letter."
You do not have to say he is a liar, the facts speak for themselves.
Gary,
ReplyDeleteIt is true that perhaps not every contributor knows every speaker. I do know, that copies of the itinerary are sent out to anyone on the OTI community mailing list, and are available by request on top of that.
It is very obvious, to all donors, that some speakers are anti-Israel. It is up to the donors (so far hundreds of them!) to make the decision, based on the student's presentations, if they will fund it or not. Fortunately, our involved community has seen past the fear mongering, and is moving for peace, towards education, and supporting the OTI program for the 4th year in a row!
@Anonymous, please do not call me a liar. If you would prefer to be a man about this, please send me a personal email and we can discuss this in person. Defaming me, one of the most active pro-Israel students in southern California, doesn't help your cause if you are truly pro-Israel! I'm working for AIPAC as I type this right now. Did I make a mistake, a bad one? Yes. I take complete responsibility, even though the blame doesn't fall squarely on my shoulders (other students were involved).
Matan,
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion-and it is only my opinion- if you really support Israel, you are going to have to come to the realization someday that these individuals are aiming for the end of Israel one way or another. The world is full of so-called peace activists like Jewish Voice for America and ISM, Viva Palestina et al who share that vision. The peace movement only kicks into gear when Israel fights back (Gaza-Lebanon) they are silent when Israel is hit by terror. Look how ISM uses young people from all over the world to train them, send them out to protest and carry the messsage back to their countries. It is all part of an effort to delitimize Israel in the eyes of the world.
You can dialogue with them to your heart's content, but it is not going to change their ultimate goal. I have been watching Palestinians engage in terrorism ever since the 1960s. They have not only killed Israelis, but people from all over the globe in the name of their cause. At what point does one lose interest in their cause?
The facts speak for themselves. The letter is one thing. The comment that all students were contacted and accepted an apology is another. That was a lie.
ReplyDelete"...one of the most active pro-Israel students in southern California." Quite a bold statement. What does this mean? How does one measure this?
Gary, I take this woman's words at face value. If she meant to say something else, she should retract her ill-considered language and try again, to say what she really meant.
ReplyDeleteEven if she meant what you would like to think she meant, the assumption that all Jews should think alike, and no Jewish person should contribute to an activity that another Jewish person disagrees with, exemplifies the worst stereotypes of Jews.
The reason you and Matan are speaking past each other is that you, Gary, change your ground every time Matan debunks what your point used to be, before Matan debunked it.
Just say "I, Gary Fouse, and suspicious of the OTI agenda, and if anyone asked me, I would not recommend donating to it. Many individuals of the Jewish faith agree with me - particularly those who have emphatically chosen NOT to be part of OTI."
That's what your entire fixation on this subject boils down to.
"The reason you and Matan are speaking past each other is that you, Gary, change your ground every time Matan debunks what your point used to be, before Matan debunked it."
ReplyDeleteLOL
Trust me Siarlys,
I am going easy on Matan because he is a student.
Mr. Fouse,
ReplyDeleteHaving spent literally months with these people in OTI, I can speak for their morals, their conviction to peace. I am aware of groups like Jewish Voices for Peace, who are abhorrently anti-Israel, do not speak for the Jewish or Israeli voice, and should be condemned.
There is a difference between a group that has a goal of delegitimizing Israel, and a group that challenges those rhetorical lines.
Tell me Gary, have you every heard of Palestinian students on a UC campus who speak out against BDS in a public setting?
Matan
Matan,
ReplyDelete"Tell me Gary, have you every heard of Palestinian students on a UC campus who speak out against BDS in a public setting?"
No, but I'm sure you are about to give me a couple of examples. Then Siarlys will chime in and tell me how you have debunked me again.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGary,
ReplyDeleteMultiple Palestinian and Arab students spoke out against BDS first at the OTI welcome back event, and then again at the first SJP meeting. I don't have video footage, but you can ask others that attended so it is not just me making these arguments. At the first SJP meeting was Joe Wolf, who heard a Palestinian and Egyptian student speak against boycotts.
Anon,
Wow, so much for amendment rights with you. Maybe I just want to be able to receive updates on events? I can't have non-Political Muslim friends? I have a picture on Facebook from Halloween dressed like a sultan, I'm sure that also makes me Muslim as well.
Matan,
ReplyDeleteThe amendment right is yours, as it is mine to express how I feel.
Nothing was said about Muslim friends. The MSU is an organization that regularly engages in hostile activity directed against Jews and Israel and is a different story. Since you brought up friends though, you may want to question friends that are members of such an organization. Maybe in 1938 you would have had some friends in the Hitler Youth as well....just the proud German ones, not the political ones.
Ideas and ideology are what is important, not your dress.
@Anon
ReplyDeleteSo are you then requesting that I drop my "connection" with the MSU group? Should I de-friend all the Muslim students that have ties to MSU as well?
Let me know how I can help you.
Matan,
ReplyDeleteA request was never made. Your associations say something about your character. They should be taken into consideration when considering things you say and your opinions.
There seems to be a double standard when it comes to the MSU. The hatred they put out is no different from the KKK (though maybe presented in a different manner), though any decent person would be hard pressed to have friends associated with the KKK.
Gary,
ReplyDeleteAre you running your blog based on Matan's lies?
He has not once denied being a member of the MSU FB page, in fact his responses on this blog seem to make it clear that he is a member and does not have a problem with that and yet when he says it is slanderous you remove the post? Facts are not slanderous and should not be removed.
Truth 0. Matan's Lies 1.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, it is my blog, and it is my responsibility to operate it with some degree of responsibility. You have made some very serious accusatiuons against this young man who is a UCI student. Keep in mind that I am a UCI teacher, and thus, treat students with an abundance of caution, if, for no other reason than A SENSE OF PROFESSIONALISM. (And that includes individual MSU students as well.)
As for whether your accusations are true or false, I take no position. He says they are false and slanderous. That latter word has meaning, and I intend not to lose sight of that fact. I will continue to report on this issue according to what I consider to be facts. I am not much interested in debating anyone's character unless they are a public figure. Right now, my focus is on looking into who these figures are on the Palestinian side who are involved in the Olive Tree Initiative.
Gary,
ReplyDeleteIt is your blog. In the he said she said game occurring here, you choose Matan, even though he has continued to lie. That makes one start to question the value of your blog.
Facts are not slanderous and should not be removed. See for yourself that Matan's lies have continued: http://yfrog.com/h2sr1jj
"That makes one start to question the value of your blog."
ReplyDeleteThat is your choice.
"Your associations say something about your character."
ReplyDeleteI read Gary Fouse's blog regularly, often comment, and sometimes even find something to compliment Gary on. Does that say something about my character? Should anyone who is not a southern California conservative consider me to be one because I associate with Gary?
I regularly exchange emails with bona fide Republicans. Does that make me a Republican?
I've been known to take an elderly Hispanic friend to Roman Catholic services. Does that make me complicit with pedophile priests?
One of the better results of military service during WW II (for the survivors) is that millions of Americans from rather distinct insular ethnic and religious communities were all thrown together, dependent upon each other daily for their lives. It had a salutary effect on American culture during the second half of the 20th century. It did not turn Poles into Italians, or Italians into Irish, nor did it turn dark skin lighter or light skin darker.
Insinuations of guilt by association are both pathetic and intrinsically evil.
Gary allows wide latitude here for opposing viewpoints, even sharp ones. Who should know that better than I? Only the most egregious insults or outright falsehoods has ever motivated him to delete a comment.
Siarlys,
ReplyDeleteHe took down a comment based on Matan's word. That comment said Matan is a member of the MSU FB page. Notice here the evidence that Matan once again lied and the comment was based on fact: http://yfrog.com/h2sr1jj
Your analogies are weak. If you were knowingly associating with a pedophile priest, that would say something about your character. It would not make you guilty of the same, it would just speak to your character.
Let's be clear here.
ReplyDeleteI looked att he speakers in previous OTI itineraries. The Arabs are leaders in the nmovement to boycott and destroy Israel as a Jewish state and are serial liars, such as Diana Buttu who claimed on US TV none of the rockets fired from Gaza ever had warheads on them. Mazin Qumziyeh has called Zionism a disease. The Israelis are from the anti-Zionist camp of Jews like Oren Yifchatel and that whole B'tselem crowd that is now being proven to be paid off by the Arabs. If Rose Project gives money to the Federation before it goes for this trip, then its Federation money. George Rishmawi has always used sdubterfuge in ISM activities.
As for Matan Lurey, there will always be useful idiots. This program has to go. How to do it?
Ask everyone attending to sign a statement in writing that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state, the Hamas must renounce the Hamas Charter that calls for the murder of world Jewry and that some Jewish communities can stay in a Palestinian state. IF they won't sign, then you know what's really ebing taught here. If the Arabs gain a few Jewish kids to go home and call for boycotting Isrsel, then the program is a win for them sponosred by JEwish money.