(Hat tip to Vlad Tepes blog for this story and video.)
On November 2, 2004, Theo Van Gogh, a Dutch film maker, was murdered on an Amsterdam street by a Moroccan man incensed over Van Gogh's film, "Submission", which had criticized Islam's treatment of women. Since then, Van Gogh's colleague, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Muslim apostate who collaborated in the film, has had to live in hiding outside of The Netherlands and under heavy security since she is also a target.
As we speak, Dutch law maker, Geert Wilders, is on trial in The Netherlands for "inciting hatred toward Muslims"-or something like that. Wilders' position is that Islam is incompatible with a free, open, democratic and tolerant society.
Recently, a mural was put up on a Rotterdam wall with the inscription, "Thou shalt not kill", in Dutch. Below that sentence was written the date of Van Gogh's murder (2-11-04). A nearby mosque complained to the police, and as a result, the mural was covered over.
So much for freedom of speech in The Netherlands. As the previous post suggests, it appears that radical Islamists can preach all the hate they want in The Netherlands, but when Dutch people protest, the arm of the law comes down hard.
Trencherbone,
ReplyDeleteDon't be so wishy-washy.
You can play the same game with The Bible.
ReplyDeleteLance,
ReplyDeletePerhaps, but you are talking about stuff many centuries old that few Christians take seriously and fewer still put into practice.
Today, Christians (except for a handful of loons) are not killing anyone in the name of God. Same for Jews. Unfortunately, there are many sayings in the Quran and hadith that are being carried out today.
I'm just referring to Trencherbone's website where quotes are selected very carefully to form the narrative that he wants.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is not The Qu'ran - it's fundamentalism and literalism. If I wanted to start some sort of a crazy death-cult using The Bible, I sure as heck wouldn't be the first one to pull it off.
Gary, you are right on this one.
ReplyDeleteLance, Christians have to follow Jesus' teachings, or they are not Christians.
Lance,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ingrid on that. I don't have any problem with the life and teachings of Christ. He preached peace and love. What folks like the Vatican did in the ensuing centuries doesn't change that. They failed to follow Christ's teachings.
Do you guys really want to go down this road with me?
ReplyDeleteWhenever Christians talk about following Jesus' teachings, all they're paying attention to is all the nice things he said. They always conveniently leave out the things that do not reflect our society's values.
If you're going to follow Jesus, then give up everything you own. That's what he said to do. He also said to hate your parents.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Matt. 10:34
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
And let's keep in mind that in the book of Revelation, Jesus wears a blood-soaked robe while flames come out of his eyes and a sword from his mouth. He smites his enemies left and right.
Let's also not forget that according to Jesus, all the stuff in the Old Testament still counts. And even if it didn't, it doesn't change the fact that his father (or is it him?) condoned mass-slaughter, slavery, and keeping young virgin girls as the spoils of war.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: We should not use the scribblings of ancient tribesmen as a guide for our present-day values. Is there some good stuff in there? Yeah, but you have to step through all of the awfulness in order to get to it.
I guess I don't know the Bible as well as you do. I never heard those quotes in church. Now that you have given me those revelations, I choose to ignore them in following my life.
ReplyDeleteFunny but I never met a committed Christian who hated his parents.
That's exactly my point, Gary! Of course you don't follow that stuff. I don't expect you to do so. I don't expect most Christians to do so.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that both the Qu'ran and The Bible have all sorts of things that are pretty messed up. Sure, they both have nice things too (like most of Jesus' sayings and all the bits in The Qu'ran about giving to the poor).
Just as it's possible for Christians to ignore the messed up things about their holy book, it's possible for Muslims to do the same - just as many of them do.
Lance,
ReplyDeleteQuick question: Which religion is currently acting on the more troubling aspects of their holy book?
Islam, definitely.
ReplyDeleteI'm not arguing that point though. I stand by what I originally said - I can play the same quote-out-of-context game as Trencherbone using The Bible. Not only that, but the "peace and love" stuff of Jesus is one small part of a book that tends to contradict that message quite often.
Lance, of course Jesus didn't bring peace, his teachings divided people, he knew that. He also said to love your neighbor as you love yourself. Hard to do but necessary to have peace. People can choose and we have to choose him above anyone and anything.
ReplyDeleteHe did indeed say that. The problem is, The Bible says a lot of other stuff that gives the exact opposite message.
ReplyDeleteLook, do you buy it from Muslims when they say that the Qu'ran is all about peace and then they carefully select a few passages in order to prove that? I would guess not.
Lance,
ReplyDeleteI would say most of what you are talking about in the Bible is in the Old Testament (which frankly, turned me off as well.)
As for the Koran, keep in mind the priciple of abrogation, which means that any conflicts between one writing and another is resolved in favor of the later writing. Mohammed wrote the Quran over the course of years during which he went from being just a preacher to a military leader when his word was rejected.
Current events would seem to belie any claim about "peace".