Since I have visited the beautiful country of Switzerland on countless occasions for work and pleasure, I have been following the minaret controversy with some interest. It seems to me to be a complicated issue with two sides to the story.
As my readers (who are well-informed) know, Swiss citizens have voted to disallow construction of any further mosque minarets. Presently, there are four such constructions in Switzerland and about 150 Muslim centers or places of worship.
Predictably, Muslims have reacted with anger, both in Switzerland and internationally. The Swiss establishment along with the European establishment are wringing their hands over the decision of the citizens and worry about retaliation against Switzerland. Of course, we all know they have reason to worry. Muslims meanwhile are calling it a clear case of Islamophobia. They may be right.
So, as an American, raised on the tradition of freedom of religion, do I have a problem with the decision of the Swiss voters (not that it matters)? Normally, I believe that all religions should have the right to establish their places of worship. However, that should extend to other countries as well.
For example, do Christians have the right to set up a church in Saudi Arabia? The answer is no-it is illegal. (If you are wondering about Jews-don't even ask.)
In Egypt, Coptic Christians regularly suffer discrimination and persecution. In Iran, the Ba'hai are persecuted regularly. How, you ask? How about arbitrary arrests, assaults, rape and murder? You see, their religion is not recognized by the state.
Ask yourself whatever happened to Jews in Middle East countries after the creation of Israel. Jewish communities had existed for centuries in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen and other places. After 1948, they were basically driven out-virtually all of them-leaving most of their possessions and homes behind. The last remnants of Yemen's Jewish population is now trying to get out of that country due to persecution.
In short, in much of the Muslim world, there is little or no toleration for other religions.
My point is that if Muslims in Switzerland are going to cry "Islamophobia", then they must look themselves in the mirror and ask if their countries of origin are as tolerant as they expect western countries to be. What is their own attitude toward other religions in Switzerland?
They should ask themselves why Swiss citizens might be concerned about messages of hatred and intolerance that spew forth from many mosques in western countries. No one objects to people of other religions peacefully and quietly worshipping in their own way. That includes Muslims. It is when we learn of many mosques and clerics who are preaching hate toward us in our own countries that we should draw the line. As for the Swiss, should they not be concerned about drawing in visitors to their towns who might have radical ideas in their heads? Maybe they think that their quaint little town views would be marred by a minaret hovering over the skyline. Laugh if you will, but it is a legitimate point.
And don't forget those dawn wake up calls.
What has happened here is that the Swiss people have spoken over the heads of their politically-correct and weak-kneed leaders. The rest of the Europeans are taking note as they should.
Either you believe in full freedom of religion or you don't. Apparently you don't. Basically your argument is that of a 5-year-old child: "Well, well... they do it too!" You're essentially conceding that the Swiss now have about the same level of religious tolerance as those despotic countries you listed. I'm not sure following the example of those countries is a good argument FOR the ban.
ReplyDeleteHere's an illustration for you. The text reads, "Countries which restrict freedom of worship."
Apparently you're only a conservative who believes in small government so long as those ideals don't clash with your personal prejudices.
OK Bryan, let's set aside the religious intolerance found in many Muslim countries. That does not give us the right to shut down Muslims' ability to worship. I agree with that. However, you skipped over my points about the Swiss perhaps being concerned about radical speech that comes out of some of the mosques. And I'm sorry to tell you this because you may think it is ridiculously trivial, but maybe the Swiss don't want minarets hovering over their towns. Swiss cities don't have skyscrapers-even the big cities. So maybe the Swiss would like to preserve the old world charm of their cities-and maybe they don't care to be awoken at dawn by the call to prayer.
ReplyDeleteDenying a minaret is not depriving them of the freedom to worhip.
BRYAN,
ReplyDeleteJUST SAW YOUR ILLUSTRATION. PUTTING SWITZERLAND THERE IS SILLY. OBVIOUSLY A RECENT REACTION TO THE VOTE.
"However, you skipped over my points about the Swiss perhaps being concerned about radical speech that comes out of some of the mosques."
ReplyDeleteCan you explain to me EXACTLY how that has anything at all to do with whether or not a Mosque has a minaret?
"And I'm sorry to tell you this because you may think it is ridiculously trivial, but maybe the Swiss don't want minarets hovering over their towns. Swiss cities don't have skyscrapers-even the big cities. So maybe the Swiss would like to preserve the old world charm of their cities-"
No, I don't think it's 100% trivial. I would have no problem if there were a blanket regulation which stated that no new structure built could be over X height. But this is a clearly blatant case of religious discrimination, as it specifically targets only ONE type of structure, the Islamic minaret. Not Christian cathedral spires, not high rises, not cell phone towers, JUST the minaret. That is about as clear-cut as religious discrimination gets.
"and maybe they don't care to be awoken at dawn by the call to prayer."
Again, if that were the concern, then okay, pass a blanket regulation in regards to ANY loud noise between such and such a time. That would be fine with me. But I repeat, to specifically target ONLY Muslim noise is discriminatory.
As for the illustration and your reaction to it, I find it hilarious. One minute you're comparing Switzerland to Saudi Arabia, but now all of a sudden that is "silly." You made the comparison first, not me. I'm sorry it offends you to see the point illustrated visually.
Bryan,
ReplyDeleteRead carefully,
The examples I gave about having a minaret hovering over your city and the dawn wake up calls were raised by me-and me alone. I have not read any Swiss reference to those points. So it is premature to accuse the Swiss of blanket discrimination.
"However, you skipped over my points about the Swiss perhaps being concerned about radical speech that comes out of some of the mosques." (gary)
"Can you explain to me EXACTLY how that has anything at all to do with whether or not a Mosque has a minaret?" (Bryan)
It has a lot to do with it. It is a documented fact that many mosques in Europe are used to preach radical ideas and hatred toward non-Muslims and western society. Not all mosques, but many. It is likely that many SWiss don't want such a place next door or any extension of an existing mosque that would attract more visitors. Is that Islamophobia? I suppose it is, but to deny the reality that exists in Europe is crazy. It seems to me that Muslims in Europe need to attempt to reassure the natives that they do not pose a threat. Most don't, but the radical voices are still there, and they are mostly emenating out of the mosques. That is a fact. It is precisely that which is stirring the Swiss resistance.
Your comparison arguement is silly because I used Saudi as an example of a country that is vastly more discriminatory against other religions than Switzerland could ever be. There is no contradiction.
OK Bryan how are the Muslims being denied their right to worship? They have every right to build a mosque, just not the minarets. That is permitted. Funny how Muslims cannot enter the 21st Century but want everyone to live in the 6th Century. Instead of waking up the neighborhood with their catawalling noise, they could easily call each person up on their phones and scream the noise into their ears.
ReplyDeleteFree exercise of worship is not restricted. Only the level of noise is. If Muslims don't like it, they can leave any time and move to a nation that will give them the bs they seek.
BTW the biggest voters against the minarets was liberal women. They see the truth in Islam. A faith based on lies, hatred, and sexual inequality. That idea should be one each faith strives for (Don't go after me for orthodox Jews. I can't stand those bastards either!).
Cologne is getting a huge mosque with minarets, and most Germans are opposed to it, but they don't get to vote on it like the Swiss.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't like is the threats of possible terrorism against the Swiss or anyone who agrees with their decision. That is where I have problems with Islamism. I am glad somebody is taking a stand against their outdated, hateful religion.
Findalis,
ReplyDeleteEvidently you know more about "Orthodox Jews" than anyone else.
Orthodox Judaism comprise a multitude of vastly different groups. Your characterization of them as "those bastards" is a rather disgusting and hateful generalization.
If you do not like what any of those "Orthodox"groups have to say, you can very easily join a conservative, reform, re-constructionist, or whatever flavor of the month Jewish group there might be. You can even show up twice a year without fear that those "bastards" will come after you.
"It has a lot to do with it. It is a documented fact that many mosques in Europe are used to preach radical ideas and hatred toward non-Muslims and western society. Not all mosques, but many. It is likely that many SWiss don't want such a place next door or any extension of an existing mosque that would attract more visitors. Is that Islamophobia? I suppose it is, but to deny the reality that exists in Europe is crazy. It seems to me that Muslims in Europe need to attempt to reassure the natives that they do not pose a threat. Most don't, but the radical voices are still there, and they are mostly emenating out of the mosques. That is a fact. It is precisely that which is stirring the Swiss resistance."
ReplyDeleteAgain, you have completely failed to explain to me exactly what any of this has to do with whether or not a mosque has a minaret. For argument's sake let's just say you're right about many mosques being used to preach radical and hateful ideas. Are you proposing that this only occurs in mosques which have minarets and therefore that is why it is a good idea to ban minarets? Because that makes zero sense. It's possible there is hate being preached at mosques both with and without minarets. That is exactly my point: whether or not a mosque has a minaret has absolutely ZERO, NONE, NADA bearing on what is being preached inside. Even if it did, I imagine it's easy enough for the proper authorities to monitor what is preached, no ban on minarets necessary.
There are many Christian churches where hate is preached from the pulpit. Should we therefore ban the construction of church spires and belltowers?
I recently posted a story about a radical rabbi in Israel who called for the killing of gentiles, including children and babies, so obviously there are synagogues in which hate is preached. Should there be limits placed on synagogue construction now too?
The answer to both questions is of course a resounding NO, but not if I were to follow YOUR logic. In that case the answer would be YES.
Findalis, as for your concern about the call to prayer being too early and disruptive, I already addressed that point. If early morning noise is a concern, then fine, pass a blanket law that says, "There may be no loud noise between such and such hours." But to legislate specifically against Muslim noise, and Muslim noise only, is a form of religious discrimination and repression.
Bryan,
ReplyDeleteC'mon, do you really think I am making a connection between minarets and radical hate speech? How did you read THAT into my argument. Let's just say that the Swiss don't want any minarets in their towns especially ones that will dominate their tiny skyline. If that is their only beef, then they have a right to it. Besides, it's their business, not ours.
Bryan,
ReplyDeleteYour reference to radical hate speech coming out of churches and synagogues is also rather specious. They are limited to a precious few radical nut cases like that church in Kansas that protests at soldiers' funerals. You could count the Christians they speak for on a couple of hands. On the other hand, hate speech coming out of mosques are unfortunately not so limited. There are enough of them all over the world to be concerned.
"Let's just say that the Swiss don't want any minarets in their towns especially ones that will dominate their tiny skyline. If that is their only beef, then they have a right to it. Besides, it's their business, not ours."
ReplyDeleteThen that is blatant religious discrimination if it's not about the height of the structure but the fact that it's a Muslim structure. I'm not sure when religious repression became a right. And if it's none of our business, why are you posting about it? Frankly though, it is my business because I will not stay silent and watch as yet another minority group is persecuted in Europe. "Never again," as they say.
"Your reference to radical hate speech coming out of churches and synagogues is also rather specious. They are limited to a precious few radical nut cases like that church in Kansas that protests at soldiers' funerals. You could count the Christians they speak for on a couple of hands. On the other hand, hate speech coming out of mosques are unfortunately not so limited. There are enough of them all over the world to be concerned."
Do you have any statistical figures to back up this claim? Or are you just basing it on your "gut?" Plus you seem to be contradicting yourself. One minute you say the majority of European Muslims are peaceful and not hateful, now you act as if hateful rhetoric is widespread enough to where the entire group must pay for it.
The majority of Muslims, Christians, and Jews are peaceful, decent people. Each group has their extremists. I was simply pointing out your hypocrisy for only being concerned with the extremists in ONE group, and supporting their repression.
Bryan,
ReplyDeleteYour argumental logic is down a quart I would say. First of all, I have to repeat that you are correct that most people in all groups are peaceful. Are peaceful Muslims being penalized for the radicals? You bet they are. That's why we are always imploring them to stand with us against the radicals. Turn them in, fight them, or whatever it takes. Others tell me I am being naive-that it will never happen.
Secondly, Muslims in Europe are not being repressed according to my knowledge. Seems to me the Europeans have bent over backwards to accommodate them-even in the face of hate speech, demands, threats and violent acts. Here again, inoocent Muslims have to pay for the actions of the bad guys in being stimatized. I sort of relate it to the past in my dea years when Nigerian and Colombian travelers were always singled out for secondary searches at airports world-wide because of the huge amount of drugs being smuggled ny Nigerian and Colombian couriers. Fair? No. Understandable? Yes.
As for stats on Christian or Jewish churches and synagogues that preach hate. Of course I don't. It is based on a life of following what's going on in the world. I would challenge you to show me your stats on this. How many can you find? Then compare it to the sheer numbers of news reports of hate-preaching mosques that are reported virtually every day. All mosques? Of course not-but I repeat-enough that we should be concerned.
Then tell me who is being intolerant. That is the central question here, Bryan; just who is being intolerant?
Bryan, I understand your sense of fairness but to really understand the problem you would have to come and live in Germany for a while. I just listened to a debate on German television between people of different opinion on that subject, and tolerance came not from the Moslem, but from the others on the panel, which included a Swiss citizen, a German Christian Democrat and a German Jew.
ReplyDelete@Ted
ReplyDeleteI grew up in an Orthodox Jewish home and the restrictions they place on women. So my knowledge is from personal experience, not on written or oral sources. I am waiting for the divorce and marriage laws to be changed. They didn't come from Moses, they were written in the early part of the 3rd Century CE, so they can be changed. But those bastards won't!
I agree with Ingrid. Tolerance has to be a two-way street. I would also add that it is not the duty of a host country to conform with its immigrants, rather the other way around.
ReplyDeleteFindalis,
ReplyDeleteSorry that you had such a rotten experience at home. I presume that you are not referring to your parents as "those bastards" since they evidently raised you orthodox.
I am not in a position to argue a woman's role in orthodox Judaism, however, based upon my personal experience attending regular services at an Orthodox shul, many secular Jewish women and men attend of their own will and many of them drive on Shabbat without any repercussion whatsoever.
As I said earlier, orthodoxy comes in many flavors. If that doesn't work for you, there are the other streams of Judaism.
@Ted
ReplyDeleteThis I know and attend an Conservative Shul (strange?) I don't call my parents bastards, but the men of the Bet Din who wish to keep the religion in the 16th Century. I want it to grow!